The book of Hosea and its outcome challenges us today to consider how we are treating God. We are his beloved and he is our God. How are we treating Him? ‘with carelessness? With contempt? With a double life? a long back sliding? It will also warn us to beware the wrath of a betrayed and trampled love.’
I read recently that God’s divine love described as ‘In his general goodness God bestows various gifts upon the creature; in His love He gives Himself and holds nothing back.’ A God who gives of Himself and holds nothing back, blows my mind and yet that is who He is.
‘God is the God who bears the sins of the world and the sins of his people; Gods love is taken for granted and he is abused and rejected by thousands.’ And yet he comes to woo and to entice with a love so great and overwhelming that it can’t be denied. With a passion so great he would do what ever it takes...even send his own son to die a terrible death...that his beloved may be drawn back to him; into the covenant relationship, of joy, grace and peace but most especially love.
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21 comments:
Well wrtitten Becster.
I'm not sure that I really like the notion of being wary of a God who is wrathful at being betrayed and having his love trampled.
Does seem a little in contrast to the God of Love and grace presented by Jesus and the New Testament.
How are we to reconcile these two "images" of God, and should they be reconciled, or one disgarded?
Thoughts?
Hey Becster. It's good to have someone around like yourself who is well read :) You must have some pretty full shelves of theology books leftover from Bible College! I feel quite lucky to have stumbled across this little blogging community.
"Does seem a little in contrast to the God of Love and grace presented by Jesus and the New Testament.
How are we to reconcile these two "images" of God, and should they be reconciled, or one disgarded?"
I personally find it difficult/impossible to *reconcile* the two - on the one hand, of a God of harsh judgement/wrath/etc., with the beautiful, compassionate, merciful, loving Jesus.
The way that I explain this (reconcile is maybe not the right word...) is that Jesus, being the son of God, is the supreme revelation of God. Therefore, if something I read elsewhere in the Bible seems to contrast with the image of Jesus/God as presented in the gospels, then I would tend to
favour what I know of Jesus from the gospels.
The idea of being 'wary' of someone in any *loving* relationship would lead me to question the nature of the relationship. A woman who is in a violent relationship might be 'wary' of her partner - but our relationship with God is not the same...I would maybe use the word *respect* in place of *beware the wrath*.
Good postings Bec :) I'm suffering from bloggers block at the moment.
Hey Jodie,
glad you liked the blog...i do have full shelves...im addicted to shopping at koorong and so my shelves are expanding all the time...my next trip to koorong is tuesday and i am already excited thinking about what i could be bringing hm...glad u like our blogs :) hope ur blog block ends soon :)
I personally find it difficult/impossible to *reconcile* the two - on the one hand, of a God of harsh judgement/wrath/etc., with the beautiful, compassionate, merciful, loving Jesus.
Jesus got angry too...remember when he upended all the tables i the temple and raged through there...i think sometimes we have a 'nice' view of Jesus which is great but he is God and God is a God of Judgment and of Grace...
I havent reconciled it yet either...i think thats another reason i latched on to this last blog topic...i always had trouble reconciling the God of the OT with the God of the NT but they are they same...aslways was...its just we see a different side of Him as He acts to bring about our ultimate salvation.
"Jesus got angry too...remember when he upended all the tables i the temple and raged through there...i think sometimes we have a 'nice' view of Jesus which is great but he is God and God is a God of Judgment and of Grace..."
I agree, Jesus did get justifiably angry in this circumstance because they were turning the sacred into a market. However, this instance of Jesus getting angry still to me seems *quite different* from the Old Testament depictions of God's anger/judgment/wrath/people getting destroyed/etc.
You describe Jesus as "raging" through the temple...but it's not really the same type of *rage* that we see from God in the Old Testament...
In each of the gospel accounts of this story, Christ's purpose seems to have been to stop the temple from being used as a market, rather than deliberately inflicting pain/punishment on the people present...this is my current view anyway...but feel free to agree/disagree :)
Overturning tables and chairs to stop people from doing bad and disrespecting the sacred is still quite different from the actions of God as depicted in the old testament. Even in the gospel of John where Christ uses a whip to drive the money changers out, I don't think he actually uses it violently or vengefully. It didn't actually inflict violence on any of the people there.
Even when we consider the example of Jesus and the money changers, for me there is still a big difference between God as presented in the Old Testament and Jesus in the New.
"i always had trouble reconciling the God of the OT with the God of the NT but they are they same...aslways was...its just we see a different side of Him as He acts to bring about our ultimate salvation."
I agree that God stays the same. I think that maybe the way that humankind has understood God over time has changed. With the arrival of Jesus on the scene, it's kinda hard to see God as full of wrath anymore...
I go to Koorong from time to time, but you sound like my housemate, who regularly gets those $10 vouchers for spending heaps of money :)
my sis works there so i get 20% off...doesnt help my addiction in the slightest...
Hmmmm, nice discussion ladies.
:)
So what is the deal with the old and new testaments? I like your point Jodster that we should trust the revelation of God through Jesus. But should the same inportance be placed on the old testament still?
Is it simply a historical/contextual reference in which to view christs coming?
After all there is lots of the old testament that Jesus came to put behind "us", and much of it that bears little or no relevance today.
;)
"Is it simply a historical/contextual reference in which to view christs coming?"
For me, that basically sums it up. I see the Old Testament as a record of the way the Jewish people understood God, revelation from God, and their relationship with God at the time. When God arrives on the scene in the flesh, that takes priority in my book.
However in saying that, at times Jesus refers to stuff in the Old Testament without actually criticising it, so I don't think we should necessarily throw it all out with the bathwater...there are bits of it that Jesus agreed with.
At other times, he picked stuff out of the Old Testament which he felt was in contradiction with the new covenant and basically told us to disregard the old...
I think the New Testament and Jesus were/are the main things and the Old Testament was the warm-up, or the context for Christ's arrival later on.
sry but i totally disagree...
the OT points towards Jesus and actually there are many references to what/who he will be and do...
i dont think there is any way of understanding the NT without first understanding the OT...
there is alot to be learned from in the OT...it (that is the jewish faith) is the foundation of the christian faith and there is so much of God and Jesus revealed in the OT...
'BITS THAT JESUS AGREED WITH" what the??? he agreed with the while lot...if he didnt he wouldnt be God and his coming would be pointless...
and if it was pointless and to be thrown out we wouldnt have it as part of our text...
The Importance of the Old Testament
Why was the Old Testament so important to the writers of the New Testament, and why is it important to mankind today? Let's briefly summarize some of the things it reveals to us.
• It reveals God—that there is a Creator, that the world didn't just happen, and that He is in control over everything at all times (Genesis 1; Isaiah 46:9-10).
• It reveals that this God is a God of love who is deeply concerned about every person who has ever lived, and that He wants to share everything with all of humanity (Psalm 8:4-8; 86:5; 100:1-5).
• It reveals that God's love is defined by His laws—by the two great laws of "Love God with all your heart, soul and mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" (Mark 12:29-31; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). The Ten Commandments, and the statutes and judgments based on those commandments, show us how to live God's way of love.
• It reveals that sin brings suffering—that when we sin, there is a penalty. And if an entire nation sins, it eventually will reap the results of those sins. On the other hand, if an individual or a nation repents of sin and asks God for forgiveness, He is ready and willing to forgive (Deuteronomy 28:15-68; Psalm 103:8-13).
• It reveals the plan of God—that there would be a Savior who would pay the death penalty for your sins and my sins; that this Savior, the Messiah, would establish the Kingdom of God on earth; and that there would be a resurrection of the dead to eternal life (Isaiah 53; Daniel 2:44; 7:27; 12:2-3; Job 14:14-15; Ezekiel 37).
• It reveals that there would be a new covenant under which God would give people the gift of His Spirit, which would remove our heart of stone and replace it with a heart that would love and obey God (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:26-27).
• It reveals that humanity is created in God's image, created to be like Him and to share rulership with God over the entire universe (Genesis 1:26-27; Psalm 8:6, Hebrews 2:6-8).
These are some of the wonderful truths that the Old Testament reveals. It's no wonder that Satan has blinded the minds of people into thinking that it's obsolete, irrelevant or something that God had to discard because He had a better idea. The New Testament is built on the foundation of the Old. Together they form one complete story—the story of God's deep love for mankind and His plan for humanity. GN
-- Scott Ashley
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn15/importance_otnt.htm
i think that we souldn't dismiss the Old Testament becuase if it was not important then it wouldn't be in the Bible. Its obviously there for a reason and one of the ones that i can think of is that it shows the journey of God's chosen people, their relationship with Him and with each other. It tells us about human nature and offers guidelines and examples that are helpful to us. i know that some of the ideas are not (i want to say outdated but that is not the right word, neither is obsolete...) but they are still there and still relevant.
Hmmm, intersting and interestinger...;)
I'm gonna be a bit both ways here. Maybe in the middle??
I do feel the OT is more context and prelude for Jesus. But saying that does make the OT very important. As you both point out it can't be thrown out with the bathwater.
However, Jesus did have a fair bit to say about the interpretation of the OT by Jews at the time. Against legalising God and their faith. And treating people with broad generalised brush strokes that religion is still very much guilty of today.
There is the point that Jesus does change the covenant. We go from the isralites being the chosen people to Christians being the chosen.
We'll have to discuss this more, and I'll have to do some reading and think about where I stand.
Nice work so far though guys ;)
Hey Tan. :)
We do need to be a little careful with taking everything as gospel that is in the bible.
After all there are only 4 gospels :).
This discussion really all seems to come down to context. In what context should we read the OT? Is it all simply the "word of God" or a historical testimony, or a prelude and reference for Christ, or all of the above?
If it's all simply the word of God, why has he seemed to have changed his mind by the NT on somethings?
Should we try as hard as we do to reconcile the OT and the NT?
Is that what God/Jesus wants?
The context of the NT is the OT...without the OT there is no understanding the NT or what’s happening in it...
I think the OT is the word of God in an historical testimonial form, that is the prelude to the NT...it’s the redemptive journey of mankind and God...
What did God ‘change’ his mind about???
I don’t think the OT and NT need reconciling they are one text of the history and happenings of the Jewish and Christian faith and their God...what needs reconciling? The person of God? I don’t think so...Jesus is God and God is God and the Spirit is God they are all different facets of the same God, all the emotions, works and whatever exists in all three persons but we see those emotions, characteristics, etc differently through their works...it is easier for us to relate to Jesus and see his personality and works cos he became flesh but all that he is God is also...u have to be careful in separating them...
Hey Becs :) I actually agree with each of the dot points that you cite from Scott Ashley about the Old Testament.
"What did God ‘change’ his mind about???"
1. Pete drew attention to *legalism*.
I'm reminded of when Jesus declares that he is Lord of the Sabbath, when the Pharisees are using Old Testament law to criticise Christ's disciples for picking heads of grain...Jesus doesn't seem to agree with OT laws that restrict and to him appear to be laws just for laws' sake.
2. Dietary laws also come to mind. In the Old Testament, they're a big deal.
Fast forward to the New Testament, and Jesus is more concerned with what comes out of the mouth than what goes in.
3. Leviticus 21:17-20 None of your offspring throughout their generations who has a blemish may approach to offer the bread of his God. For no one who has a blemish shall draw near, a man blind or lame, or one who has a mutilated face or a limb too long, or a man who has an injured foot or an injured hand, or a hunchback or a drwarf or a man with a defect in his sight or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles"
Fast forward to the New Testament, and Jesus had a habit of mixing with imperfect/broken people. whereas the passage above would suggest that God does not.
4. Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death".
Fast forward to the New Testament, and we have the woman caught in the act of adultery. The Pharisees specifically refer to the law of Moses (given by God) and how it commanded them to stone her to death. However Jesus does not agree with the law of Moses – “Has no one condemned you…neither do I condemn you” (John 8:11).
There are numerous examples of things like this in the OT...but I'm reluctant to cite a large number of them because it will make my comment too wordy and painful to read :)
5. In the OT, we have killing on large and smaller scales, apparently sanctioned by God…
Fast forward to the New Testament, we have the Jesus, the Prince of Peace, telling us to *love our enemies*, *bless those who persecute you*, *blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God*. When a follower of Jesus strikes the servant of the High Priest and cuts off his ear, Jesus heals the guy’s ear, and declares, *whoever lives by the sword will die by the sword*. There is no record in the NT of Jesus sanctioning killing or violence.
“Should we try as hard as we do to reconcile the OT and the NT?”
Jesus didn’t go around saying “you must reconcile the OT and the NT, then come and follow me” :) So in response to this question, it is possibly not high on Jesus’ list of priorities, so while I think it’s okay to discuss it, it maybe doesn’t need to be a *top priority* on ours…
These are my current thoughts.
The OT is a historical and legal document intended for the nation of israel that provides a back drop or context for the coming of Jesus.
As you say Becster it is also a story about God and his people.
As opposed to the OT the NT is a personal account for the followers of Jesus on how they should behave, rather than a nations law book.
As christians our faith should be based upon Jesus and the new testament, not the old, with the old providing historical context and only having authority as given by Jesus.
The Old testament only has any relevance to me personally because of my faith and relationship with Jesus.
:)
i think then we may have to agree to disagree...
i dont think the OT is discounted in anyway by the NT and i find it just as important for my walk and faith as the NT...
Eh, I'm not sure we really disagree, I think it's a matter of perspective.
For example the OT only has relevance for us as christians because of Jesus and the new testament. If not for the NT there wouldn't be any christians and we'd rather be Jewish.
Part of the reason why the old testament is called the old testament and the new is the new is due to the change in the covenant. So to an extent the OT is irrelevant, but as we've been discussing it shouldn't (as hasn't) been disguarded.
Hence the question of it's relevance and the whole reconciliation between the OT and NT and whether it is really needed.
:)
but ur saying it isnt as relevant as the NT and i think it is just/equaly as relevant...if not more cos without it i wouldnt understand or have any appreciation of the NT
and its also called the OT and NT because its divided by the intertestemental period where God was silent...nots not strictly a convenantial reason...
and to no extent is the OT irrelevant...choose a diff word if u think we are 'agreeing but from diff perspectives'...as long as the word irrelevant is being applied to the OT we are disagreeing...
"Jesus didn’t go around saying “you must reconcile the OT and the NT, then come and follow me” :) So in response to this question, it is possibly not high on Jesus’ list of priorities, so while I think it’s okay to discuss it, it maybe doesn’t need to be a *top priority* on ours…"
WHAT THE???
of coarse he wouldnt have cos the OT and NT as we know it didnt exist...but this is my accademic world...and whether we agree or not i dont care i just like debating this be it important or not its what im passionate about theology and biblical studies...it may have no basis for my salvation or walk as christian but i like chucking it around...
"If not for the NT there wouldn't be any christians and we'd rather be Jewish."
Interestingly enough, I came across a group awhile ago called "Jews for Jesus" (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about) which accepts the New Testament and believes that Jesus is the Messiah, but still identify as "Jewish" rather than "Christian"...
However, from reading what they actually believe, it sounds like they are basically Christians with a different label/cultural background.
Jews for Jesus are kool...they acknowlegde Jesus as being the Messiah but keep they heratige and traditions...the Jews were always looking for the Mesiah...its just they missed him...
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